Citysprint

Gripes, moans, whines and complaints - get it off your chest!
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Bob Johnson
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Re: Citysprint

Post by Bob Johnson »

nads wrote:If he gives it to one of his favourite buddies at Manc depot, the Manc driver earns more, so does the depot.
How does that work then?

The depot can pay their full price to a local van, or pay part price to a returning van. They would therefore make more money giving it as 'backload'

RLT
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Re: Citysprint

Post by RLT »

My mate did his first CS job last week, Northampton to Leicester, no return, 35 to 40 p if he is lucky. Covered costs, plus a tiny bit. Way under the minimum wage I would suggest.
So why do it then? :rolleyes:

nads
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Re: Citysprint

Post by nads »

RLT, for the moment he has to, to test the backload theory to make up his money. He will be ok, he has a fresh HGV class 2 and has options but needs to do his refresher hours before being taken on.

For now he is testing the water.

I am interested how the backload theory works. Bob questions how does it work. I did hear that the attitude of return load depots can be frosty. The depot has a Manc driver sitting who can do the London job, you are also in the area, who gets the job ? What if there is a London depot waiting for a Preston run for example.

RLT
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Re: Citysprint

Post by RLT »

nads wrote:RLT, for the moment he has to, to test the backload theory to make up his money. He will be ok, he has a fresh HGV class 2 and has options but needs to do his refresher hours before being taken on.

For now he is testing the water.

I am interested how the backload theory works. Bob questions how does it work. I did hear that the attitude of return load depots can be frosty. The depot has a Manc driver sitting who can do the London job, you are also in the area, who gets the job ? What if there is a London depot waiting for a Preston run for example.
Sorry to disagree!
Nobody is forcing anyone to do the work!

ALso it is NOT good policy to do so called backloads to make up money!

I despair, as I say, the only ones to blame for poor money offered are the one's that do the work!

nads
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Re: Citysprint

Post by nads »

You are right RLT he doesn't have to and I decided not to.

He is being a little cautious by waiting and seeing how it goes.

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EnsonExpress
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Re: Citysprint

Post by EnsonExpress »

nads wrote:My mate did his first CS job last week, Northampton to Leicester, no return, 35 to 40 p if he is lucky. Covered costs, plus a tiny bit. Way under the minimum wage I would suggest.
Please explain this, because it sounds like you're guessing. Did he get paid 35p or 40p or somewhere in between. How can 35 or 40p cover the cost of delivering from Northampton to Leicester. Or do you mean he will be paid 35 to 40p a mile? Or do you mean he will be paid enough to give him 35 to 40p per mile PROFIT. Are any of those ROUND TRIP miles? "Covered costs plus a tiny bit"? What did it cost him? Where's the news item about CS paying so little it's less than minimum wage?
Dennis
Renault Kangoo with carpeted floor and folding bulkhead. 1.1 x 1.1 x 1.4m.
07903 129 445

Dear Lord, please save me from the ex pert drivers (y'know the ones in black cars).

nads
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Re: Citysprint

Post by nads »

70 to 80 p was quoted at the hotel presentation depending on the customer. That's plm so 35 to 40 each way. He won't know for sure until he gets his statement.

I'm not guessing, it's what they quoted. It has been confirmed by others that CS rates will barely cover your costs.

90 mile round trip at 30 p cost is £ 27, let's take best case scenario at 40p is a payment of 36. Took him 2 hours on a margin of 9 quid is 4.50 an hour. If it is 35 p and 2.5 hours it's even worse.

Now you are gonna dispute the 30 p a mile cost again. That's ok, give the same calculation on your own perceived cost and see what you come up with.

polarisbob
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Re: Citysprint

Post by polarisbob »

I think Nads has hit the nail on the head. You are never going to get a return load unless the CS depot have no other option.

Imagine being a controller at that depot and your drivers finding out you'd given a job to some stranger who's just rocked into the joint, you'd get hung drawn and quartered!!

Unless you do a regular run, you are never going to get a return load as a sameday courier, you're better off developing your own contacts for return loads.

Best wishes,

Polaris Bob

"Peace be the journey."

RLT
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Re: Citysprint

Post by RLT »

polarisbob wrote:I think Nads has hit the nail on the head. You are never going to get a return load unless the CS depot have no other option.

Imagine being a controller at that depot and your drivers finding out you'd given a job to some stranger who's just rocked into the joint, you'd get hung drawn and quartered!!

Unless you do a regular run, you are never going to get a return load as a sameday courier, you're better off developing your own contacts for return loads.

Best wishes,

Polaris Bob

"Peace be the journey."

Better still,quote correctly and forget about return loads. :shock:

nads
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Re: Citysprint

Post by nads »

So if we can ascertain the level of return loads given by CS we can discover if their formula works, ie pay peanuts but give returns.

If the consensus is that very few are given then CS are liars and misinforming New drivers .

RLT is right I think, relying on back loads is not a good idea, unless anyone can prove otherwise ?

Bob Johnson
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Re: Citysprint

Post by Bob Johnson »

nads wrote:RLT is right I think, relying on back loads is not a good idea, unless anyone can prove otherwise ?
What a daft question, how can some prove its a good idea to rely on something?

Bob
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Re: Citysprint

Post by Bob »

Hi guys,
just starting as self employed courier.
CS pays now 46pplm for a small van (Kangoo).
Don't know yet how I am gonna make it :(.
Is it worth to be VAT registered?

nads
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Re: Citysprint

Post by nads »

Good luck Bob, your findings will be of interest.

brummieadam
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Re: Citysprint

Post by brummieadam »

Bob wrote:Hi guys,
just starting as self employed courier.
CS pays now 46pplm for a small van (Kangoo).
Don't know yet how I am gonna make it :(.
Is it worth to be VAT registered?
kin ell
i simply wouldnt do it :no: you may as well stack shelves fella
Vat ? i dont think you have the ability not to become vat registered , you will need every penny at that rate

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EnsonExpress
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Re: Citysprint

Post by EnsonExpress »

Bob wrote:Hi guys,
just starting as self employed courier.
CS pays now 46pplm for a small van (Kangoo).
Don't know yet how I am gonna make it :(.
Is it worth to be VAT registered?
Here's some stuff...

Whether you are VAT registered or not, 46pplm will not make enough difference to save you and your family.

On Bristol's buses, they have an advert saying you can earn £430 a week driving this bus.

So let's take an easy target of £460 a week. Now, at 46pplm, you'll need to do 1,000 miles to make £460. But that's loaded miles and you have to get back empty. So you'll have to do 2,000 miles to earn £460. That's assuming your van costs you nothing to buy, nothing to insure, doesn't ever need servicing and runs on fresh air. That's fine, innit? But 2,000 miles in a 5 day week is 400 miles a day - if you're extremely lucky, you'll average 50mph, so that's only 8 hours a day. Sensible people on here reckon a Kangoo costs at least 20p a mile to run (but not including enough spare to buy a new van some time), so half the 46 is 23p a mile and you make 3p a mile round trip (if you're lucky enough not to have to drive empty to and from the pickup point). That means you'll have to drive 15,333 miles a week to make £460 - at 50mph that's 307 hours, or 13 days a week. You wouldn't have to be doing sleep or food.

Yesterday, I did a delivery from Bristol to TopShop in Oxford Street, London. Left home at 1.30pm and got back home at 7.45pm. Six and a quarter hours, one of the best runs I've ever done to London. Total mileage driven, 253, loaded miles paid 121. Not at 46pplm! Average 40.48mph (and I do 70 on the M4)

Today, I did a delivery from Bristol to Ormond Street Hospital in London. Left home 9.30am, got back 5pm. Seven and a half hours, pretty average. Total mileage driven, 243, loaded miles paid 120. Average 32.4mph.

If you had done those two jobs at 46pplm, the total you'd have taken home would be £55.66 for yesterday and £55.20 for today. Repeated all week would give say £275. Is that enough to pay your rent, food, electric, etc? But ooops - we forgot you'd have running costs of 1,250 miles at 20p = £250. Is £25 enough to meet your weekly bills? But ooops, we forgot that CS charge for uniform, van signs, tracker, every week, don't they. And if you averaged 10 miles a day unpaid to pickup point, that'd be another £10 off the week's earnings.

Or in other words, if you haven't already done it, don't sign up with them. Try Royal Mail Sameday and TNT - their pay is also lousy, but slightly better then CS, so you won't starve quite as fast.
Dennis
Renault Kangoo with carpeted floor and folding bulkhead. 1.1 x 1.1 x 1.4m.
07903 129 445

Dear Lord, please save me from the ex pert drivers (y'know the ones in black cars).

Bob Johnson
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Re: Citysprint

Post by Bob Johnson »

You deserve some pennies for all those words, but I just don't get why any newbee doesn't just do a few quick sums themselves!

nads
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Re: Citysprint

Post by nads »

Enson if you think a small van costs 20 p a mile. What do you think a Transit costs, you doubted my figures.

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EnsonExpress
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Re: Citysprint

Post by EnsonExpress »

Bob Johnson wrote:You deserve some pennies for all those words, but I just don't get why any newbee doesn't just do a few quick sums themselves!
Neither do I. He should hopefully by now realise I was being kind when he really deserved rude!
Dennis
Renault Kangoo with carpeted floor and folding bulkhead. 1.1 x 1.1 x 1.4m.
07903 129 445

Dear Lord, please save me from the ex pert drivers (y'know the ones in black cars).

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EnsonExpress
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Re: Citysprint

Post by EnsonExpress »

nads wrote:Enson if you think a small van costs 20 p a mile. What do you think a Transit costs, you doubted my figures.
I did indeed doubt your figure of 30p a mile to buy and run (your words) a Transit and you still haven't shown any figures to substantiate it.

Just to clarify, I personally don't agree the small van is as low as 20p, but as several people think so, it happily proved a useful figure to demonstrate the disastrous nature of subbing for CS. Perhaps you didn't notice that I said the 20p doesn't cover buying another van later. My own figure is closer to 30p and that would have shown him paying to do CS work. If you did a little more reading, you would find me writing that I believe 60pplm is barely covering costs for a small van and does not provide a living income.
Dennis
Renault Kangoo with carpeted floor and folding bulkhead. 1.1 x 1.1 x 1.4m.
07903 129 445

Dear Lord, please save me from the ex pert drivers (y'know the ones in black cars).

Rwill
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Re: Citysprint

Post by Rwill »

Bob wrote:Hi guys,
just starting as self employed courier.
CS pays now 46pplm for a small van (Kangoo).
Don't know yet how I am gonna make it :(.
Is it worth to be VAT registered?
Perhaps Bob will qualify his post to us as I read it different from others!

He is saying to me that having just started he has found out that the CS rate is 46p which he realises is simply not enough and then enquires on VAT. He may well have done his own research/experience on small van operating costs in order to reach his own conclusion.

"WE" do sometimes tear into first posters early on and then wonder why they don't come back or come back with attitude.

Alec
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Re: Citysprint

Post by Alec »

EnsonExpress wrote: Just to clarify, I personally don't agree the small van is as low as 20p, but as several people think so, it happily proved a useful figure to demonstrate the disastrous nature of subbing for CS. Perhaps you didn't notice that I said the 20p doesn't cover buying another van later. My own figure is closer to 30p and that would have shown him paying to do CS work. If you did a little more reading, you would find me writing that I believe 60pplm is barely covering costs for a small van and does not provide a living income.
While I agree that CS rates are (and always have been) too low to be worthwhile, I'd challenge your estimate of vehicle running costs. While they may be true for your vehicle, based in your area, doing the mileage that you do, they're certainly nothing like what my costs would be if I was running a small van.

I'd be looking at 17-19p/mile including all costs, based on a 2,000 mile week - which equates not to 34-38 per loaded mile but maybe 28-32p - unless we've time-shifted back to the time before mobile phones and all you ever do is go out with one job on board and come back completely empty.

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EnsonExpress
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Re: Citysprint

Post by EnsonExpress »

Rwill I do hope I'm not included in the tearing into first posters early on (with the exception, of course, of nads, for reasons I've already explained). I did end my information with the comment "if you haven't already done it, don't sign up with them".

Alec Because I used other peoples' 20p/mile, I would not challenge too greatly your 17-19p/mile EXCEPT that you haven't taken account of replacement cost and with your figure of 2,000 miles a week (which I think is difficult to achieve consistently). A new van at £10,000 in two years adds 5p a mile to the 17-19, so long as it doesn't suffer high cost repairs at that level of mileage.

And I did say "my own figure", which includes 10p/mile replacement costs at my mileage of very very much less than 200,000 in two years.

And "come back completely empty"? How many times have we heard the mantra "Don't rely on back loads" and the other mantra "You'll get as many back loads as you'll find rocking horse poo". I'm a subby, pure and simple, out there on my lonesome in my van, which is not a mobile office, relying on other people to give me work. I can't remember the last time I got a back load. I can't remember the last time I had the opportunity to get out my mobile phone or iPad to ring round or search the internet to try finding a back load when I was on a loading bay in some town when I'd finished unloading, or whilst on the road to a destination. For two hours either side of my double yellow lines delivery yesterday, I was bumper to bumper with London traffic. Mobile phone or iPad for back loads? Not a chance! I sometimes add my journeys on Shed 5, but with London you can't reliably estimate when you'll clear - it was an hour late yesterday.
Dennis
Renault Kangoo with carpeted floor and folding bulkhead. 1.1 x 1.1 x 1.4m.
07903 129 445

Dear Lord, please save me from the ex pert drivers (y'know the ones in black cars).

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